Q2: Where abouts in California does Ned Chaffin live?

K: Well, it’d be in the southern part. I might have his address. It’s been several years since I wrote to him.

Q1: But in all your trips in there you never did see any cows or sheep or cowboys in Standing Rocks, Doll House, or…?

K: Well, yeah , they camped there at Waterhole Flat a lot where that big pothole is. And they had a winter camp there for several years. That was the group that moved in about 1958, I think it was. And they were there for two or three years. Then they moved out. And then the other guy from Hanksville come in there to Waterhole Flats and he run cows in there for years and years. I thought they were doing it up until about three or four years ago.

Q1: Nobody north of Teapot Canyon?

K: I don’t think so.

Q1: Okay, well, thanks, I wasn’t sure. We were trying to figure out how long that’s been ungrazed in there and haven’t been able to find much out about that. Do you have any idea who built the old stock trails, the one going out to WaterCanyon, over the ridge and up and out of Shot Canyon? With all the steps?

K: Well, I thnk the Chaffins built most of them trails. There was Art…I mean, Lou Chaffin and Ned Chaffin were running stock in there, I think.

Q1: Did you ever go down that trail that comes from Chimney Rock ..I’ll show you here on the map…from Chimney Rock into this side canyon of The Maze?

K: Uh, no.

Q1: Now that’s an old stock trail and I’d like to find out some of the history of that one. It’s deteriorated a lot but there are a few places on it where there are some steps and places where they built the trail to get the stock down in there.

K: Well, that Chimney Rock used to be called the Candlestick Rock. And when we went in there the first few times there was a great rock sitting on top of it, looked just like a flame. And that’s why it was called Candlestick. And then after it fell over then they started calling it Chimney Rock, I think.

Q1: You mentioned Henderson Arch in your book. I’d like to find out where that is. We might have changed the name.

K: Where’s Lizard Rock?

Q1: Here’s Lizard Rock.

K: Well, it’s the one that’s just south of this, south of Lizard Rock.

Q1: Is it maybe what they’re calling Muffin Arch now or Tibbett Arch?

K: I think it’s Tibbett Arch.

F: Can’t miss it, it’s a beautiful arch.

Q1: Yeah, Tibbett Arch is really conspicuous from the road.

K: Yeah, that’d be the one.

Q1: Okay. Do you know anything else about the names…The Wall, Lizard Rock, the Plug, Standing Rock…did they have different names at one time?

F: Beehive Arch, is that on there?

K: We called it the Wall because it had windows in it. We started calling it that.

Q1: So you named that one?

K: Possibly.

F: Jasper Canyon; that was Defiance Canyon.

Q1: Lert Knee told me that Standing Rock when he first went in, was called the Totem Pole. Did you call it that?

K: I never did hear it called that.

Q1: Ward Roylance also said it should have been named the Totem Pole.

Fern: Maybe that’s where it come from.

Q1: Yeah, maybe, he named the rock.

K: Well, yea. I was sorry to hear that Ward Roylance died. He was a great old guy.

Q1: I’m sorry too. The Chocolate Drops..do you know about that name, where that came from?

K: I think Dick Smith started calling it Chocolate Drops when he was flying trips over in there with his airplane.

Q1: Well Jack Bickers claims that…and Michael Kelsey in the guide books claim that it should be called the Chocolate Bars. Did you ever hear it called the Chocolate Bars?

K: Well maybe that’s what they called it first, I don’t remember.

Q1: And then it turned into the Chocolate Drops? Did you ever get up on Pete’s Mesa?

K: Yes, I’ve been up there several times.

Q1: Another thing we’re trying to find out…the Nature Conservancy and some of the people at the Resource Management in Canyonlands are thinking that Pete’s Mesa is a relict area – never had cows or sheep up there. Did you ever see…(Tape runs out)

[Continued on next side..some discussion apparently was lost]

I’ve got some letters of inquiry from people writing books on the area. They’ve heard a lot of stories from cowboys, I think they even heard from some of the Chaffins, that they say they had sheep up there.

K: Well I understood that there was a trail up from way over here on the north end someplace getting up on to it, but I didn’t look around there. I didn’t go all the way around it real carefully.

Q1: Well there’s some routes up on top of it but no place that I think a sheep could erver go. A big horn sheep, yes, but a domestic sheep or a person on horseback…

K: Well, I always went just out this route here and up this way.

Q1: That seems to be the easiest way up that I’ve found. I’ve been all the way around it and that, you have to hop over all those boulders and everything, it seems unlikely to me that they would take sheep up that.

K: Well, down in this Jasper Canyon, I went down there one time and there was a buck deer in there – a medium size buck. And I seen it. And it was in there for three or four years and then it disappeared and it wasn’t in there anymore. And I couldn’t imagine how it ever got there unless it come from down below someplace.